Posted June 13, 2013

Michael Jordan comparisons a disservice to LeBron James’ wide-reaching game

2013 NBA Finals, 2013 NBA playoffs, LeBron James, Miami Heat, Rob Mahoney
LeBron James played distributor in Game 2, tallying seven assists along with 17 points.

LeBron James played distributor in Game 2, tallying seven assists along with 17 points. (Greg Nelson/SI)

The mythology of Michael Jordan has done wonders for the NBA as an industry, but it’s also been largely misinterpreted. Jordan was the best player the league had ever seen as well as the most ruthless, two qualities that many basketball historians bind with a causal link. Jordan was Jordan, the thinking goes, not only because of incredible athleticism and hardened skill, but also because his approach to the game was inherently cruel and uncompromising. He’s certainly not referred to as a “killer” or an “assassin” based on his cuddly basketball personality, and from that merciless play came the template for the superstars to follow. It wasn’t enough for the next generation to win or to produce; in order to be uttered in the same breath as Jordan, other stars needed to demonstrate some of the same cold-blooded execution that elevated Jordan to greatness.

There’s no denying that basketball success requires some strand of relentlessness, but the notion that Jordan’s way is the only way is troublingly narrow. Some will inevitably share in a similarly cold intensity, but the vast majority of NBA players will navigate games, seasons and careers in distinct fashion. That’s no basketball sin, nor any indictment of their quality.

Yet the comparisons in approach and personality will continue, largely focusing on Jordan and the player with the best chance of potentially challenging his title as the greatest of all time: LeBron James. Public discussion of James’ game turned a corner in the 2011 postseason, but the obligatory Jordan comparisons linger, for reasons more to do with style than effectiveness or production. Every quarter or half in which James shoots jumpers or sets up open teammates invites this obvious contrast, the volume of which only increases if the Heat trail.

James is too often faulted for making smart, selfless plays. His patience is mistaken for passivity, and with that comes grounds for further criticism on the basis of him not being Jordan. LeBron isn’t and will never be the kind of hyper-aggressive scorer who treats every matchup as a personal affront, but he still influences the course of most possessions on both ends of the court — even in ways that Jordan never could. He casts a tall shadow without even touching the ball, and in that flexes the full extent of his superstardom in ways different from Jordan but not intrinsically inferior.

THOMSEN: Spurs contain LeBron’s scoring, but can’t stop role players in Game 2

Even on those occasions in which James doesn’t put up jaw-dropping numbers, his presence still manifests in productive ways. Take the first half of Game 2 of the NBA Finals against San Antonio as just one convenient example. In 22 minutes, James registered just four points on 2-of-7 shooting with four assists — a half as fundamentally opposite Jordan as a player of James’ stature could muster. But between the lines of the box score, James was an active participant or a needed decoy in most every play. The ball didn’t always swing his way, but there’s a world of difference between floating out of a game and making engaged moves without the ball, as James did here with a hard, planned cut down the baseline:

There is no deferral there, only balance. James understands better than most the value of letting Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh or Ray Allen operate, even if that means his role in a play is to distract rather than enact. He fills such a role without complaint. James is, by nature, a collaborator — one of the best to ever play the game. He draws pressure, but tends not to force the action:

He creates opportunities literally by running down the court (watch the Spurs’ Danny Green, No. 4 in black, completely leave Mario Chalmers, No. 15 in white, to track James):

He’s quick to re-establish a teammate in a position of advantage:

Think about that play for a moment. In a situation where most stars would reset the ball at the top of the floor to run an isolation or pick-and-roll, James re-establishes Chalmers without hesitation to exploit a point of perceived weakness. Miami attacked the baseline consistently in its Game 2 victory, and rather than divert from that plan to get his or simply control the ball, James immediately gave the ball back to Chalmers and looked to help him penetrate with a quick screen.

Watch: LeBron blocks Splitter, Duncan

That was one regard in which James helped plenty in Game 2 while going largely uncredited. He may not be attributed points on these plays, but he’s as responsible for the basket as the teammates who converted them:

Most of this action comes without box-score reward, the likes of which James also tends to earn in bulk. He scores plenty, racks up assists and piles up rebounds. But James contributes in so many ways at virtually all times that it’s baffling his style could ever be considered to be empty or in any way passive. He’s not limited in scope to his counted contributions on the scoreboard, or even to that which is immediately noticeable. The world marveled at James’ crushing of Tiago Splitter’s dunk attempt but paid precious little mind to all those occasions in which James rotated over and deterred Splitter — one of the better pick-and-roll big men in the league — from even attempting a shot:

Nor was much attention paid to this play, in which James navigates seamlessly from Kawhi Leonard to Tim Duncan to Tony Parker:

All of which transpired in James’ supposedly quiet first half.

Rodman: LeBron would be ‘average player” in 1990s

James’ game isn’t merely broad, but layered. He shows bursts of Jordanesque scoring and cobbles together impossible stat lines. But it’s his accompanying game that makes him so unfathomably valuable to a team competing for its second straight title.

He’s not Jordan, and never will be. But he’s made hardwood greatness his own by building out his game and thriving in such subtlety, and in the process dismissed any faint validity of comparisons that are as inevitable as they are tired.

185 comments
CarlTerrell
CarlTerrell

The dumbest statement of all in a very silly article had to be "he still influences the course of most possessions on both ends of the court — even in ways that Jordan never could."  Really? File 13! 

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

I liked this article, it's about time we appreciate what he can do (that nobody else ever could).


--------


the article below is even better.

It  takes an interesting look at a couple of false/dumb statements made my Bill Simmons and Jeff Van Gundy during coverage of the NBA Finals --- and how the fact doesn't play like anyone we can compare him to leads to assuming something's wrong with him.


He's Not Like Mike


http://goldengatesports.com/2013/06/15/covering-lebron-would-be-far-easier-if-hed-just-be-like-mike/

Marko_Viter
Marko_Viter

One thing is for sure, Jordan couldn't and will never match Robert Horry's number of rings!

MarcusJParker
MarcusJParker

r u trying to marry lebron lol we get it hes great with or without the ball best player in the world can he beat the best team 

Modisto
Modisto

Yo say: "LeBron isn’t and will never be the kind of hyper-aggressive scorer who treats every matchup as a personal affront, but he still influences the course of most possessions on both ends of the court — even in ways that Jordan never could. He casts a tall shadow without even touching the ball, and in that flexes the full extent of his superstardom in ways different from Jordan but not intrinsically inferior."

Let me refresh your memory.

Jordan made Pippen look like the second best player in the league, Grant and Kukoc look like perennial All Stars... and I can go on.

Jordan not only influenced the course of his teammates games, he influenced his careers. That's how deep his impact was on his teams.

We might be missing something by not paying attention, that remains to be seen, but you, it seems like you already missed quite a bit, Mr.

This from a non Jordan fan.


jayant69
jayant69

Enough said about Bron and Jordan, so the article should read that comparing Bron to MJ is a disservice to MJ not bron.

vicente
vicente

rob mahoney is doing a disservice to michael jordan for writing this article

vicente
vicente

i guess joey crawford will be back for game 4 to even this series out

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

Protectors of Kobe's dying Legacy: He scored 81pts and did I mention he has FIVE rings (Three of them while riding in the ShaqPaq) 
 
Protectors of Michael Jordan's Legacy: Let's compare Lebron to MJ as many times as humanly possible when they have almost nothing in common other than the fact they play basketball. 
 
Protectors of LBJ's growing Legacy : I feel compelled to overstate Lebron's greatness because the two categories above won't ever shut up!!!!!! 

daustin_13
daustin_13

As we all know, the biggest and baddest doesn't always win.  It's what's inside that sometimes carries the smaller guy to victory.  LeBron is a big dog with a lot of fight.  But does he have the fight in him to beat MJ or Kobe in a battle of wills...over 7 games?  I just don't know.  MJ and Kobe are legendary in their ruthlessness.  They almost reveled in the sorrow of others. I know what MJ did when the stakes were high.  I know what Kobe did when the stakes were high.  These guys would cut their mother's throats and sacrafice their kids if it meant winning. Literally!  Will LeBron go that far just to be the best?  I just don't know.  We'll get the answers to all these questions over the next few years though.  In the meantime, let's all just sit back and enjoy the great LeBron James and the great Tim Duncan.

daustin_13
daustin_13

I can buy this article.  LeBron is certainly near the top of the all-time great player heap even now.  But knowing what I know of him and what I know of Jordan, I can't help but think in a matchup between the two of them that Jordan's approach to the game along with what we know of his proven ability to come up big in the biggest of moments (6 NBA titles in 6 tries) would be enough to overcome LeBron's team.  And I have to also say that despite the fact that I think LeBron is now a better player than Kobe, I think Kobe on his best teams also bests LeBron James.  I think that supreme talent (which MJ and Kobe certainly are) combined with the cold blooded assassin mentality, some decent teammates and their steely wills put them over the top if matched up with James. The mental edge of those two in addition to all their physical skill wins out IMO. But that's all hypothetical.  LeBron is greatness and his complete story has yet to be written.

DSM
DSM

MJ and LBJ are both all-time greats. The rings comparisons are silly--Baylor, Barkley, Malone and Stockton never won any and Robertson and West only won as their careers were tailing off.  So much depends on the quality of your teammates and opposition--how many rings would MJ have without Pippen? How many rings would Wilt or West have if not for the Celtics? What if Bird and Magic or Kobe and Duncan hadn't had to battle each other?

It is hard enough to name the 5 best players of all time--if you take MJ, LBJ, Bird, Magic and Russell, many will argue that at least one of Jabbar, West, Robertson , Wilt and Kobe were as good or better.

rameyag
rameyag

I've been an NBA fan for over 50 years and along with Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson, LeBron James may be the most complete basketball player I've ever seen.  Michael Jordan is the best one-on-one player I've ever seen, but Russell, Robertson, and James are the most complete players I've ever seen.


vicente
vicente

ONE SWALLOW DOES NOT MAKE A SPRING

he needs to win more than one championship before we start comparing him with the great nba players

if ever lebron should be compared from past nba players, it should be lebron mark I.

lebron version 2013 plays like lebron 2013

he plays better than lebron 2012 the same way lebron 2012 is better than 2011, which is lebron mark I (the cleveland lebron - miami year 1; i say this because his game did not change for 8 years the same way that dwights game has not changed since his first year in the nba)

Rickapolis
Rickapolis

Each is outstanding in his own way...

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

Wow, this writer is way off base, nobody ever did anything better than Jordan --did you see how perfectly his Airness scratched his bahhll-sack that one time 15yrs ago when he wasn't retired????


We should definitely take LeBron James for granted. After all, plakers like Bron Bron arrive like clockwork in every single draft class. In fact, we should dismiss all elite players that don’t fit into a comfortable narrative where Michael Jordan is the prototype/deity – a world where when one chooses not to be like Mike, then by definition, one has chosen incorrectly.

LeBron is a 6-foot-9, 265lb point guard possessing the kind of Herculean athleticism we haven't seen since Bo Jackson, and could name ten things he does better than MJ --- so I’d suggest watching now and hating later, or you just might miss something that won’t ever happen again in our lifetimes.

I could be wrong.

But I don’t remember the time Kobe, or Oscar, or Magic, or Bird, or Pistol, or ‘Nique, or Havlicek, or Stockton, or Monroe, or Elgin, or Jerry, or his holiness from on high (cue religious unveiling of secret Indiana Jones artifact music) Michael Jeffrey Jordan, done did this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wmdqJRukMU 

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@vicente 

god i hope so...

Danny Green 18.7pts, 3 rpg.

Ladies and gentleman your 2013 NBA Finals MVP, who also has one assist three games.


Can someone please stand up and play like they were once an All-NBA performer ???


LeBron (actually putting up the best numbers in the finals while simultaneously choking, forever confounding Bron Bron haters and Bron Bron hopers), 

Duncan (Waiting for Pop to wake him up if there's a fire), 

Parker (One legendary game winner, I'm done), 

Wade (I was done before we got here), 

Ginobli (Will always have Barkely, and everyone's respect), 

Bosh (No respect for whatever it is that CB's game has turned into), 

Ray Allen (Hired gun on the tail end, pressure's for Primadonas in their prime) 


Wow.. guess not.


Do we really have to pin our hopes on a T-Mac sighting?



vicente
vicente

@humdrumdrumhumming 

the operative word is OVERSTATE. im glad you made that point clear.

out of all those nba players mentioned, LEBRON is the only one with the opportunity to be the greatest of all time

vicente
vicente

@daustin_13 

MJ and KOBE wil dig up their heels when the going gets tough

LEBRON will just pack up his bags and go to MIAMI

ChrisJenkins1
ChrisJenkins1

@daustin_13 Prime time Kobe was simply unstoppable so was Prime time Jordan. Lebron has alot more left in his system I dont think its fair to even compare him right now, 1 ring doesnt get you in that conversation hes had a great two years but you have to extend that over a longer period of time.. If his career ended today he would be like Terrell Davis of the Broncos, he was by far one of the greatest rb's in league history those 3 years in Denver, but thats not enough to get you in the HOF.

Marko_Viter
Marko_Viter

@DSM, absolutely true! Ring comparisons are silly because MJ and Kobe could not match Robert Horry's number of rings!

John64
John64

@DSM  Not only that, but also how many rings would MJ have without zen-master Phil Jackson?  No one will ever know.  But all of this "XX best players of all-time"... it's fun to debate it, but at the end of the day, we all know who the greatest 1% to ever play the game are. We all know the names. Mix 'em up however you like.

akattack
akattack

@humdrumdrumhumming 

"
But I don’t remember the time Kobe, or Oscar, or Magic, or Bird, or Pistol, or ‘Nique, or Havlicek, or Stockton, or Monroe, or Elgin, or Jerry, or his holiness from on high (cue religious unveiling of secret Indiana Jones artifact music) Michael Jeffrey Jordan, done did this..."

MJ stuffed Shaq. Twice.

solomonshv
solomonshv

@humdrumdrumhumming Kobe did better. i remember Kobe taking his Lakers from a 15 point deficit, when no one else was able to score, picking up 81 points (plus a boat load of steals and rebounds) and winning a game basically all by himself.

Let me know when Lebron does something like that. So far all his big wins came thanks the the aid of some of the leagues best players.

Lebron is a very selfless player. i'll gibe you that. posting ~10 assists a game along with 20-30 points. but that does NOT outweigh all those 60+ point games Kobe had. Kobe single handedly turned many games around.

jayant69
jayant69

@humdrumdrumhumming Your right i have never seen anybody ever block a whitey with no ups. Bron your the greatest now. Thanks to this video your the greatest baby. Oh and go ahead and name the 10 things he does better, and flopping cant be used. 

daustin_13
daustin_13

@vicente @humdrumdrumhumming Not if he keeps playing like he did tonight.  The guy I think is the G.O.A.T never turned in a finals stinker like this one.  I love LeBron as a player but you can add tonight's game to his 2011 finals stinker collection.

John64
John64

@vicente  LOL... comparing no-income tax South Beach, Hollywood and Chi-Town to... Cleveland??  Ugh... Can ya BLAME him??  Cleveland is where great players go to die. It's a broken-down old graveyard compared to those other Meccas.  Lebron fulfilled his contract and got the hell outta there-- and I don't blame him one bit.  

Nobody ever gives Shaq any sh*t for leaving the sad Magic for L.A.. Or Kareem for bailing on Milwaukee for L.A.  

daustin_13
daustin_13

@ChrisJenkins1 @daustin_13 True Chris.  True indeed.  But I do think that if LeBron stopped playing today he'd be a hall of famer.  He has been that great IMO and his greatness deserves recognition.

vicente
vicente

@John64 @DSM 

HOW MANY RINGS WOULD LEBRON HAVE WITHOU ERIC SPOELSTRA?

SAME LOGIC?

Marko_Viter
Marko_Viter

@jayant69, it was a block from behind. Any average college player could do it! Common sense!

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@jayant69 @humdrumdrumhumming 

Well said.

I never said LeBron was the greatest. 

But how about this?

If you can PROVE Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all-time in under 10,000 words I'll name a thousand things LBJ does better than MJ.

Deal?

vicente
vicente

@daustin_13 @vicente @humdrumdrumhumming 

after taking them lessons from hakeem,

he should see karl malone and learn how to do a fade away jumpshot (only because bird has already retired from coaching) i reckon its money well spent

John64
John64

@Marko_Viter  It's all based on timing, biases and revisionist history.  If Jordan hadn't had Pippen and Phil Jackson come along in '87 and '88, who knows? He may have bailed out of Chicago due to frustrations with cheapskate Jerry Reinsdorf. But the Lebron-haters will always find something to whine about. 

Kareem fled to L.A., Moses Malone fled to Philly, Karl Malone & Gary Payton fled to L.A., Garnett & Ray Allen fled to Boston, Ray Allen fled to Miami, Shaq fled to L.A., then fled to Lebron, etc etc etc... 

But when LEBRON does it... oh no!! LMAO... 

Marko_Viter
Marko_Viter

@John64, and nobody cares about Garnett fleeing to Boston. Poor Lebron, non-Heat fans are all his haters.

Marko_Viter
Marko_Viter

@solomonshv @John64, does it mean Jordan would have never win a championship if Pippen didn't show up? Jordan can't really win it all. He would need a supporting cast and scape goats!

John64
John64

LBJ never delivered on his promise because the Cavs never delivered any actual talent to LBJ. And why was that? Because nobody wants to play in... Cleveland. It's the arm pit of America-- especially for sports. 

Ewing "stuck it out" with the Knicks. Yeah, in the media capital of the world. Hooray for Ewing.  

Yes, Jordan needed Pippen and Phil Jackson. Thanks for making my point for me. Winning titles takes a talented team with a deep bench. What a concept.

Lebron "chickened out"? LOL... what are you, 8-years-old? Oh, and he didn't "flee" to Ray Allen. Ray Allen fled to Lebron. Allen also "fled" to Pierce, Garnett and Rondo in 2007 to win a title with Boston... but of course, no one ever whines about that either...  only when it's Lebron... ah, you haters slay me...

John64
John64

@solomonshv  LOL... oh no, Lebron broke his "promise"! hahaha... Well yeah, it's kinda difficult for one player to win a championship all by himself. Pretty sure that's never happened. And not only did Lebron never have any other great players in Cleveland, he was forced to drag around a bunch of excrement for 7 years.  The best players to "come along" for LBJ were clowns like Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Boozer in '03, Varejao, worn-out 37-yr-old  Shaq, etc...  No help at all.

solomonshv
solomonshv

@John64

Lebron promised to win a championship for Cleveland, then bailed when he realized it would be hard to do without a team of all stars backing him up. he never delivered on that promise.

Look at Patrick Ewing for comparison.  He is a legend, but never won a championship. he stuck it out with the Knicks and gave it his all. 

And jordan didn't start magically winning championships from day one. The reign of the Bulls didn't start until Pippin came along 7 years later. Lebron chickened out. He didn't want to risk it, so he fled to Ray Allen and Dwayne Wade for a ring.

daustin_13
daustin_13

@John64 @vicente No income-tax South Beach has two rings...and will have two after this series if LeBron keeps playing like this.  Chicago has 6 thank you very much.

John64
John64

@vicente   WHAT?? COULD YOU SPEAK UP?? I'M HAVING TROUBLE HEARING YOUR ALL-CAPS!!!  Oh... there we go... that's better...

Yeah, and how many without Dwyane Wade too? Exactly. That's pretty much my point. Don't worry, All-Caps Guy, I happen to think Jordan is the greatest player in NBA history too.  Relax. Keep calm and watch Game 3...

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@solomonshv @humdrumdrumhumming


great story, except for the part about being wrong...


stood next to Iverson plenty of times and he's no where near six feet tall, college players say things like that to go no.1 overall ---- "Listed"... 

Listed at 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) tall, Iverson became the shortest first overall pick ever, in a league normally dominated by taller players.


and he is a legend fool, thought you knew...


he had seven interceptions in a playoff game in high school, which is still the Virginia state football record...

 QB, KR, PR, CB, FS, WR, RB

how do you want it dawg?


Cleats?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCAkVvNFk-0

vicente
vicente

@solomonshv @humdrumdrumhumming 

even iverson admitted later that after he gave mj the best crossover he's got, mj still almost blocked his shot. thats how great mj was.

now, lets compare what tony parker did to lebron in game 1...

thats right, lebron comparison is a disservice to mj heart and will to win.

mj never CHOKE

solomonshv
solomonshv

@humdrumdrumhumming

You aren't giving Iverson the credit he deserves. he is actually 6 foot tall, not "under 6 feet." the difference was 6 inches. and he is one of the best Point guards of all time. a master ball handler. i don't think there is a player in the league he didn't cross a bunch of times. it's too bad the environment he grew up in did him in. he could have far greater. he could have been a legend.

Nate Robinson is actually in the 5'8" to 5'9" height range. WAAAAYYY under 6 feet. about a foot shorter than Lebron. he is an on and off player. he has his moments, but for the most past he doesn't play well.

John64
John64

@humdrumdrumhumming   This is all pretty amusing, but the bottom line is that there is no UNANIMOUS  greatest of all-time  and there never will be.  Jordan just happens to be the CONSENSUS greatest of all-time.  

But there's no question that Lebron is a great basketball player in his own right. And I'm sure after he retires he'll easily be considered one of the greatest ever with Russell, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, etc... and about 20-30 years from now, kids will be arguing with adults about how Lebron wasn't as great as THEIR guy...

jayant69
jayant69

Yes because having one of the best ball handlers ever cross you over is the same as a guy that is about a foot and a half shorter then you blocking you right lmao. You proved your point again Great Humming something.

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@Sami @humdrumdrumhumming

"Can you read?Seriously, can you read? Did I say that MJ was the greatest? I think I started with "difference between MJ and Lebron is consistensy", which also separates Jordan from any other player (statistically speaking) in playoff basketball. "

-Sami

"Jordan destroyed the myth that he couldn't shoot in 19 mins"

- Sami

wow, well which is it?

and it wasn't a myth, it was a fact... Jordan was a consistently bad 3pt shooter.

Jordan's CAREER 3pt pct (.327)  would find him ranked 29th in the NBA this season, above Minnesota.

Golf claps for MJ for being the second worst shooting team in the entire NBA.

(and yes i noticed you said playoff, his playoff career "i can't shoot" pct (.332) would find MJ as the 4th worst shooting team in the NBA this season, just behind toronto, and above the marksmen he signed at Charlotte..

Jordan shot over 40pct from 3 only once in his entire career, and and only once in his entire playoff career... you're right, Jordan was is remarkably consistent when it comes to being a terrible shooter 

the only myth here is that 19 mins against a balding clyde drexler dispelled the fact that  MJ simply wasn't a very good 3pt shooter...


and a sample size of over 2,000 3pt shots beat a shoulder shrug, except when you walk on the watered down brain of MJ slurpers...

and people do peak at different times, Jordan's was many  many moons ago, hopefully yours is not behind you...

don't forget to wipe...




Sami
Sami

@humdrumdrumhumming @Sami @jayant69 

Can you read?Seriously, can you read? Did I say that MJ was the greatest? I think I started with "difference between MJ and Lebron is consistensy", which also separates Jordan from any other player (statistically speaking) in playoff basketball. My top 3 players of all time will have  Wilt, Kareem and MJ on it. Kareem is the most underrated player of all time. But let's try your questions, although most of them are idiotic.

MVP is something you vote for, who cares who wins it. Jordan didn't win it when he averaged 32, 8, 8, and 2.

Who cares about high school? We are talking about the NBA. Same with college, people peak at different times.

And are you serious about Russell? Because a) his full roster is in the HOF, b) there were no salary caps and c) there were about 15 less teams in the NBA.

Most of these questions I don't understand. You know Bulls lost to the Pistons 3years running, even though MJ kept putting up 40's. Sometimes the other team is just better.

Lol at losing to Magic. Do you know anything about basketball? They had the same Magic team a year later, how did that work? Magic got swept. Bulls were a great interior defensive team because Longley and Cartwright were huge. Did you see Ewing go psycho on the Bulls in 92 and 93? Knicks got close with great D, but you are just making retarded statements about one of the best defensive teams ever.

Divac had been in the league for about 3 years, and I would take Vlade over any Center in the NBA today. Teams he beat only had Karl Malone and Barkley in the paint, two of the best PF's of all time.


Again, your questions make no sense and neither do you. Maybe you are missing your medication. It's pretty much a statistical fact that nobody has performed at such a high, consistent level in the playoffs as MJ did. I don't care about awards that you vote for. It took MJ years to win his first MVP even though his statline was unreal before that. MVP is a popularity contest and it has nothing to do with basketball.


Now go run laps or something.






humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@ChipWelch @humdrumdrumhumming @Sami @jayant69 

ahhh, a (more) worthy opponent, excellent...

Really? I thought they were beaten by Malone, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, Barkley, KJ, Dumas, etc. Styles make fights, and I feel quite strongly the Rockets would've been slight favorites over the Bulls both years they won.

Right, way to back me up that MJ is 1-1 against elite post players during his entire careerofwonderfullness.

Yes and Jordan played with two of the greatest, and most versatile, defensive players in history that kept the game close so they could hand it to the designated scorer to pose for the cameras.

Well since you're using other people's material on Jordan's vastly overrated college career, let's get it right: "Who's the only person to keep Jordan under 20? Dean Smith".

Kareem has only two finals MVP's because he was putting his foot thru Bruce Lee's chest while Jordan was making Space Jam.

Yes, and Jordan was never propped up to the world by the single biggest sports marketing entity in the history of the universe which carries huge advantages both financially and how he's portrayed in the media.

Wait, he totally was.

And please try and portray Jordan's high school career as anything other than below average by NBA, and Tarheel, standards.

Yes, they were great teams in the 60's, now for the love of god can someone name one great team Michael Jordan ever beat in the NBA Finals?  

It seems like titles mean 'Chips mean everything, except when they're not MJ's, and stats mean everything, except  when they don't favor his Airness and facts are facts, except when they portray Jordan as someting less than the greatest sportsman ever to walk the earth.

Maybe Mike is just a slam-dunk as the greatest shooting guard ever, which is a hell of a compliment.

But Jordan Slurpers take offense to anything less than "walked on water whilst dribbling down Broadway".

Maybe the greatest player ever depends entirely upon your criteria.


But Jordan retired ten years ago, maybe it's time to pay attention to what's actually happening before our eyes.


Just a thought.


ChipWelch
ChipWelch

@humdrumdrumhumming @Sami @jayant69 Those elite centers you mentioned were beat by Brickowski and Ostertag.  Shaq, Hakeem and The Admiral were all in the west for the Bulls second three-peat, yet couldn't make it to the finals.

Jordan did lose to the Magic once after he came back and played for a month and didn't have his game back.  The Bulls had the same glaring weakness the next year and dispatched the Magic in four straight.

By one count Bill Russell played with six other Hall of Famers.  Given that a basketball roster has only 12 players he SHOULD have won 13 championships.

Michael Jordan is not all time ACC because Dean Smith was the only person to consistently hold Jordan to under 30.

Since when does being mediocre net you a full ride to UNC?

Jordan should have won the MVP in the 93 and 97 seasons.  Why does Kareem only have 2 NBA finals MVPs?

Jordan has never inherited an NBA Championship team to run and has never been a head coach.

Sometimes the great team is the one you are looking at.  How many teams won titles in the 60s?  How many truly great teams did the Celtics beat in the 60s?  They beat Wilt and the Logo, but were they really great teams?


vicente
vicente

@humdrumdrumhumming


you need to climb out of the rock you are under and LISTEN to what past generation of players are saying. they have unanimously voted MJ as the GOAT! 



humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@jayant69 

To be clear.


I'm trying to get Jordan OUT of the same sentence with every single player who has the temerity to become the best player of his generation.


And that's all Jordan was, the best player of his generation.





jayant69
jayant69

Your really trying to prove a point by going back to high school and college lmao. Like any of that matters, just ask Sebastian telfair or Any bust from college. That point is nulled based on that criteria. Jordan didn't need to coach he bought a team. Lmao yes because luc Langley and bill Wellington were so great in the middle lmao. Dude your becoming more of a Jordan hater then anything else, might as well go back and find out how he played in elementary school. Yet some how a player that quit on his team in the eastern conference finals and quit on his city is able to be in the same sentence as Jordan mmmmmmmm???

humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@Sami @humdrumdrumhumming @jayant69 

Why doesn't MJ  have as many MVP's as Kareem?

Why ws Jordan was mediocre in high school?

Why was Mike was only a great college player, but not even all-time first team All-ACC?

Why does Bill Russell has twice as many titles as Jordan?

Why wasn't Jordan ever a player and a head coach on a team that won the NBA title, like Russell?

Why did Jordan lose to the Bucks in his first playoff appearance?

Why aren't Jordans NBA Finals stats in either of Chicago's threepeats more impressive than Shaquille's when he carried Kobe?

Why can't you name a single great team Jordan ever beat in the NBA Finals?

Why did Jordan lose to the Magic when he finally came across a team that could take advantage of the Bulls gigantic, glaring weak spot in the middle? (Jordan went 1-1 against the only team he ever faced with an elite center with a post game, and no. Ewing was a jump shooter).

Quick, name the starting centers of every team Jordan beat in the NBA FInals, here I'll get you started. Ostertag(twice), Duckworth, Mark West, a 13-year-old Divac straight out of Europe, Frank Brickowski

Why did Jordan win the dunk contest when they cheated 'Nique on his double windmill in Chicago, and Jordan cheated by stepping inside the FT line..


and on, and on, and on, and on


humdrumdrumhumming
humdrumdrumhumming

@Sami @humdrumdrumhumming @jayant69 

Again, I never said LeBron was the best basketball player of all-time. 


But then again I'm not like the pathologically misguided MJ fans that think that there is one.

I'm still waiting for the part where somebody PROVES Jordan is the greatest player ever (been waiting for 15 years).




Sami
Sami

@humdrumdrumhumming @jayant69 On that note, you can't name a single thing he does better. At least  I haven't seen one. Rebounding maybe, but that's all on position and height. Defense, no. Steals, no. Shooting, no. And passing, most definitely no. MJ could've given 10 dimes a night, but that was not his job. and triangle was not run in that manner either. Collins made MJ play PG for a short period of time, and he "only" had 11 triple-doubles in a row. And yes, that is an accurate statistic.

But flopping and walking with the ball in his hands, definitely yes. I guess that makes two then.

Sami
Sami

@humdrumdrumhumming @jayant69 

Difference between MJ and Lebron is consistency in the playoffs, and the ability to taken on any challenge and play accordingly. So Magic is the greatest PG of all time? In 1991 MJ averaged more than 10 assists per game in the Finals vs Magic. In 92 the talk before the Finals was that MJ and Clyde were similar, but MJ can't shoot. That myth got destroyed in 19 minutes. In '93 they faced a high-octane offense, so Jordan averaged 40+ ppg in the Finals. In 98 with Rodman being overplayed by Malone, Pippen hurt and the rest of the team was filled with nothing but role players, MJ scores more than half his teams points in the clincher.

Also, as Tracy McGrady pointed out, MJ played in a league with men. Current generation has been ruined by teenagers walking into the league with average or less than average skills. There are almost no impact players in the draft, and the talent level in the draft overall is terrible. PF and C position are a shell of what they used to be. And no, PG position is not any better. In a league where John Wall and Brandon Jennings are called "good players", something is terribly wrong.


Not to mention that MJ didn't have the highest drop-off in scoring in the NBA finals for a star player in NBA history, nor did he score 2ppg in the 4th quarter of any Finals series. Lebron did both of those things. Consistency, nobody was better at that than MJ.